Leith: [00:00:00] The question I love to start with is, tell me a little bit about the community you grew up in and what that felt like?

Kena: [00:00:08] Okay. So I was born in Halifax, Nova Scotia, and when I was 11, we moved to St. John's Newfoundland. So I am an east coast girl. I was, you know, really grew up on the east coast, which surprises a lot of people. And, my parents came from India, so my dad actually came to the US in the sixties. He like got off, I have this picture of him getting off the plane, you know, in a suit a black and white picture, you know, with a blanket over his arm. And he landed in California and probably a decade later he married my mom and they came and moved to Nova Scotia. My dad was an oceanographer, so that's why we sort of ended up on that coast. Although my mom always said she kind of hoped we would've landed on the other coast. Like more south. But no, we grew up like, you know, shoveling snow and going ice skating and doing all those things. It's funny because growing up in Nova Scotia; there was definitely a lot more diversity there. And so, you know, I remember in my second-grade class there were kids from the Philippines or, you know, they may have been born here, but they were the second generation from the Philippines and a friend from Nigeria. Like there were people who came from other cultures. And so I didn't really get this sense, funny enough that I was really that different you know like I have like a few nuggets of memories of things that happened that made me feel like, oh, I guess I am different in that way, but I didn't really grow up thinking about it. And we didn't have this awareness of it. Like I had a great childhood, you know, lots of friends felt very welcomed, you know, it was wonderful. When I was 11, we moved to Newfoundland and you know, that age, especially I think for girls can be quite hard. And things really shifted for me there. You know, I think now as adults, we have this awareness of the things that affect us as children that really can impact us for the rest of our lives. Yeah and I think that was the moment for me is when we made that move you know, I joined a class it was sixth grade at that point and I kind of approached the move the same way, I'd approached everything up until that point. I was like, we're going to a new place. This is all exciting. I'll make new friends, like, you know, completely open, no fear. But then I wasn't welcomed in the same way, you know. Yeah. I think it was like very jarring almost for me because I felt that up until that point, making friends had never been something that I'd been afraid of or hesitant around. But in that year I remember feeling very left out, very kind of marginalized in the way that like you're not cool enough or, you know, and I think I really started to become very, self-conscious. Like self-conscious about how I looked and not just skin color. I just mean everything, you know, like you're also kind of entering that sort of awkward phase of development, you know, so you're just self-conscious anyway. And I remember having stomach aches and not wanting to go to school because, you know, I just didn't want to go. It just wasn't a place that I felt welcome. And then, you know, there's like certain specific memories that I have. One was that I tried out for the basketball team, not that I really wanted to play basketball, but I wanted to fit in. And to me it was like, if I do this, maybe I'll fit in. And I remember at tryouts, it was like the last day of tryouts. And we were sitting at a table in the gym, eating our lunch. And the coach basically said everybody on this side of the table is on the team. And everybody who's sitting on this side of the table didn't make the team. Yeah. And I mean how horrible is this? Right. I think a teacher would be fired for that now. Yeah. I think they would be fired for that now. And I went into the bathroom and I cried and I remember crying and I remember a friend, like one friend saying, "Are you okay?" And kind of, you know, comforting me, but that really impacted the way I approached, you know, the rest of the years growing up. And then even when I was free of it, I think for a long time, it stayed. It probably actually, I know it still is with me even to this day.

Leith: [00:05:08] Wow. So how did that go on to impact you, I guess maybe later when you go off to university? Like even when I got to know you, we were, you know, grad school.

Kena: [00:05:17] Yeah. I think I definitely found my way back to me, you know like I really did. That's funny the podcast is called 'Finding Me'. That's really funny, but I really did find my way back to me, I did. And actually, I think it was by the time that I started business school with you, that I felt like I'd like recaptured that like the essence of me, you know, where I felt, again, confident, I felt like good about what I had to offer. I felt like, you know, some people will be your friends and some people won't and that's okay. You know I felt like good in my own skin and relaxed about who I was and what I was good at and what I wasn't good at, you know. But the point between, you know, feeling really bad in sixth grade to then it was definitely a journey. Like I kind of went on to like work really hard to try to fit in and then show everybody how good I am. Like, you know, student council president, like, you know, just doing it all to show everybody and myself that like, I belong here, you know. But by the time I went to this school, I think there was less of that pressure behind, you know, behind my actions and behind decisions.

Leith: [00:06:38] Is that because you had some awareness that you were operating your life that way or you just think just time was a factor?

Kena: [00:06:47] It's a good question. I think it was partly timed. And then I think it was also a few years later when I was 20, my dad passed away. And I was in my first year at McGill when he got sick and I think he was diagnosed in September and by March he passed away. So it was very sudden, I think then you just, when something like that happens, you really just question everything, but you also just start to like, naturally, let go of things that aren't just important, you know, and then for me, it was like also focusing on enjoying life, right? Like I want to enjoy, you know like I switched majors. And then even when I graduated, even though there was pressure to go to graduate school, I was like, no, I feel like I'm more creative. I want to do something in business, even though I don't know what that means, because, you know, my parents were both academics. They had nothing to do with business but somehow, I was drawn to that. And then by the time I entered business school, I think I had started to sense what some of my strikes were and I felt good about those, you know, so yeah. It was definitely a journey.

Leith: [00:08:05] Yeah, for sure. Well, even going back to, you mentioned your dad passing away in your early twenties, what made you think okay. What is living to me?

Kena: [00:08:15] Yes. Yeah, for sure. So I think you know when you lose somebody who matters so much to you and my dad and I was close, like my sister. I have one sister and she and I were really close to our dad. We like very much loved him and sort of thought of him as Superman in a way, you know. And I think it just does make you sort of think what's important to me, you know, is like doing what other people are expecting of me is that what's important to me? And also what makes me feel good, right? Like, I feel like we don't even ask ourselves that much. Like what makes me feel good?

Leith: [00:09:00] Do you have that awareness in your twenties or have you just developed that?

Kena: [00:09:02] I did. You know what and I could tell you like the most obvious example was like I'd started chemistry degree. And honestly, the reason why I started a chemistry degree was that in my first year of university, I did very well in organic chemistry. That was the reason, like, not that I didn't like to have a keen interest in chemistry in any shape or form. Okay. And like, and I could even tell you the process of elimination. I was like arts, arts is a waste. Like, what am I going to do with an arts degree, right? Business, I can do a business degree, but like, isn't it better to learn on the job? Like, I don't need a business degree. And then I was like, landed in chemistry which I don't even know what I thought I was going to do with that. But I hated chemistry. Right? Like, it was horrible. Like, as you know, it's one thing to take one chemistry class, but when are taking organic chemistry inorganic chemistry, like whatever, all these things I was like, this is so not me. And I'm resisting it with every fiber of my being. And then when my dad passed away, I was like, why am I doing this? Like, why am I doing chemistry? Who am I trying to impress? What am I trying to prove? And then I made the decision to switch majors and I switched majors. And I ended up doing environmental science and geography and, in a way, I think that might have made me feel closer to my dad because he was an oceanographer. Right? So, it kind of felt like I was doing something that he might be proud of, but it was also something that I just and, you know, was like interesting to me. So I don't think that it was like necessarily conscious, you know, a lot of the decisions I made at that point, but I do remember like starting to go for long walks around then, which I don't think was a thing for me before that, and honestly all through my life, up until now, whenever I'm going through a hard time, I just need to go walk, like let me out and I'll go by myself for a really long. It doesn't have to be in nature, it could be in the neighborhood, whatever. But that I was in Montreal at McGill, and I remember just walking for blocks and blocks and blocks.

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Leith: [00:11:15] Wow. And were you conscious thinking, or you just were trying not to think, like, just walking?

Kena: [00:11:21] I think I felt like it gave me space so that if I wanted to think I could, and if I didn't want to, I didn't have to, but it's just like this feeling of space, right? I think I still very much always create that feeling of space.

Leith: [00:11:38] Yeah, I can relate to that. I'm feeling that I think partly because of COVID I'm feeling that heightened feeling of needing my own space and that yeah, I found that hard to find.

Kena: 00:11:48] And when you have children, that's like a whole thing.

Leith: [00:11:51] Yeah. I think that's why I crave it because I don't have it, yeah. Oh my gosh. So I'm interested because when we met doing our MBAs, you at that point were married so I know since then, I mean talk about having an experience of feeling stuck, you lost your first husband. Can you speak a little bit to that, like or how did you even get married? Like when did you meet Amek and how did that unfold?

Kena: [00:12:20] So I met Amek soon after we moved to Newfoundland. So we knew each other as kids, our families were friends. We didn't like, you know, when we were kids, there was no whatever, like icky boy kind of, you know, that kind of thing and same vice versa. And so it wasn't until high school that we sort of, you know, sparked a relationship. And then we went to McGill together and then I think he was doing physiology and then he moved to Guelph to do a degree in biomedical engineering and I moved to Toronto and was working here. So we kind of like just, you know, we grew up together in a lot of ways, but then we just sort of, kind of followed each other. And I think when we got married at that point, he had moved to Mountain View. He moved to Mountain View yeah, exactly. To start working at a medical device startup was super exciting. Like we both like loved the idea of moving to California and so he went off there and then I wanted to, so it was a bit complicated, but essentially getting a visa for me was a little bit trickier and I'd gotten a job offer from the GAP in their marketing department, but they couldn't work out the visa situation. Like just the way the rules were, they couldn't get me a visa. And so at that point, I had started researching MBAs and was studying for the GMA and all of that. And I asked them if I had my MBA, would it be easier to figure out a visa? And they said that it would be so that just sort of forced me because we really did want to live and work in California. And because he was on a visa, I couldn't work even if we were married, I couldn't work. You know, just because he had a working visa at that point. So that's when I came back to Toronto and finished my MBA and ended up doing an internship at GAP in between the first and second year. And then we moved to California after that.

Leith: [00:14:53] Yeah. And you lived in San Francisco

Kena: [00:14:55] That's right.

Leith: [00:14:57] And after, your MBA, you lived there for a while before coming back to Canada.

Kena: [00:15:03] Yeah. So we lived there and that's when he got really sick and that's when things sort of, I don't know but we would've come back if it weren't for that. Yeah. We wouldn't have, we probably would've stayed. Who knows, who knows how long we would've stayed.

Leith: [00:15:21] But so you came back for healthcare or you came back for family and friends or both?

Kena: [00:15:25] Both because when he got sick, he got so severely ill that even after he came out of the hospital after like a five-month stint in and out of the ICU when he did come out of the hospital, he had a lot of medical issues that weren't easily manageable. Like they were very complex and I knew that we couldn't handle it on our own nor like it was just such a traumatic period of time that the idea of going to California where we literally know nobody, other than a few friends, you know, like that we just met, it was impossible. Like we needed the support of our family and friends, we needed just a home base. And honestly, between that time, he obviously left his job and I had to let go of mine too because I was dealing with this issue. And so, we came back to Toronto after that so that was in 2008.

Leith: [00:16:25] Wow. So how did he get sick or how did that all come to be?

Kena: [00:16:31] Yeah. You know what he was on a business trip in Arizona and he got a very bad cough and it turned out to be pneumonia. And within a couple of days, he was in the ICU.

Leith: [00:16:45] What? That happens to a 20 something.

Kena: [00:16:50] I know. Yeah. At this point we were 29, I think, or maybe 30. We were 30 at this point. Yeah. And he was like, you know, perfectly healthy, you know, on all accounts otherwise.

Leith: [00:17:03] And he never recovered.

Kena: [00:17:04] No, he did not. It took, you know as he did eventually recover from pneumonia, but it like took such a toll on his body, you know, like the antibiotics and all these things that he had other issues that kind of crept up. And those are the ones that we ended up living with for a long time.

Leith: [00:17:24] So how was that experience for you? Like how did you manage obviously being a caregiver and, but still your own person and with dreams? I'm sure like?

Kena: [00:17:36] Yeah. I mean, I think now at this stage, I really reflect on that period of time as being the defining time of my life. Like that time, you know, as much as losing my dad was difficult, you know, it was still something that I could wrap my head around and I could grieve and move on. It felt like there was sort of like a, you know, the impact was there, but somehow it wasn't traumatic, you know? But what happened after Amek got sick was like an eight-year-long journey because from the time he got sick to the time that he then passed away, eight years later, we were living with his medical condition all those years. And that was during our thirties, right? And you know, like I can honestly say that before he got sick. When we were in California, I really felt on top of the world, I was like living in this amazing city. I was young and vibrant. I was making all these friends; I was working for this amazing brand. I loved where working at GAP, flying to New York, to work with their designers, and to LA to like, you know, go inspiration, shopping. It was just like a dream life, you know? And all I saw for my future was just more and more of that. Like I just saw, you know, excelling in my career, which I had finally found something that felt like me. Like I was good at this, you know, like naturally good at it. And so yeah, like those years of my thirties while I did keep going like I kept working, you know, I started a business. I started having a blog like I kept going, but there was like this big shadow over that whole time period, because what I expected out of that time period, you know, buying a home and having children and, you know, just traveling the world. Those things were just not for us. And that was yeah really, really tough.

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Leith: [00:19:58] So do you have that realization that all these plans, I don't know if they were specific plans or maybe just general isn't going to happen? And how do you move forward from that? Like, it's been my experience. And when I talk to a lot of women, they have this plan, like you're talking about, you get educated, you get married, and you have kids like all these steps on this path. And then when that doesn't go to plan, I don't know, you just have to sort of fall apart before you can rebuild with and imagine there are a million other possibilities than other than that one path.

Kena: [00:20:39] Yeah, a hundred percent. And I think as I remember, you know, there are a few kinds of moments that I can remember very specifically, like where I was and what I was doing. But I remember a time when I fully accepted that my path was not going to be what I'd planned for it to be. Like, I just like surrendered to it, you know, like, this is, it's not going to be that, so what am I going to do about it? And it's like, you know, one of the things I was just talking to a friend about this, like this feeling of radical self-responsibility, and I like found so much power in that kind of thinking because it was the only way to take control of my own situation. The right was to say, this is what it is, what are your choices? What are you going to do? How are you going to look at this? Like, how are you going to carve out space for yourself, you know? Like what decisions are you comfortable making versus not comfortable making? What support do you need? Like all of these things, it just forces you because at that point on it's like your options are fall apart or figures it out. Like there's no other thing. Like if I didn't figure it out, I would've fallen apart, right? Like even all the life that I did live in those years, I wouldn't have even been able to do that, right? So I think it really does wake you up, you know?

Leith: [00:22:13] So what brought you to that point? Like, were there certain steps that you sort of started expanding your thinking? Or how do you get to that almost breaking point to be able to move forward?

Kena: [00:22:24] Yeah, I think I remember one of the things that I did, because funny enough, when you're going through something so strange, so like unimaginable, you can't turn to people for the answers. Like you can't ask your mom, you can't ask your mother-in-law or father-in-law you can't ask your aunts and uncles, you can't. There's nobody who, who can look at you and say, like oh when this happened to me, this is what I did, you know? And so I've remembered just doing a lot of self-reflection, right, like journaling a ton, going on those walks like trying to see past my situation, I was always in it, right? So trying to look at it from a bigger lens and then doing a ton of reading, honestly, I just like read so many books. And like biographies, like trying to like learn from other people who had gone through a lot, how they came out the other side or how they even thrived, you know, as best as they could. Yeah. I spent a lot of time and I think that is when I really did turn to a lot of, sort of self-help, you know, as you would call it or personal growth because a lot of that teaching is about radical self-responsibility. Right. It's like, okay, this is your situation, you know, like what can you change? There are always things you can't change, but what can you change? You have agency over something, you know? And that is where a lot of my spark came from, like, okay. Like I have something here to work with, you know?

Leith: [00:24:19] So, and that just came to you one day. You're like, my something is my own choice, like my own agency. Is that really it?

Kena: [00:24:27] Yeah. I mean, I think that's a huge part of it is like, knowing that you have the power to look at things differently, you have the power to like, be grateful for what you do have, you have the power to like, see all the good that surrounds you, you know. You have the power to still dream, to like, dream about what you want and what you want to create. And that I still had all of that, you know, and once you feel empowered, you're just in a position to take anything on, you know, from a place of strength. So for me, I think feeling empowered is part of my getting unstuck in any situation.

Leith: [00:25:11] So what was the first thing you sort of had that realization then what was your next step that you took?

Kena: [00:25:19] I think I was probably taking a lot of little steps, you know? I remember when I started my blog, for example, that was like soon after we came back from California and I was working at Joe Fresh and I was managing the women's business there and it was like very early on in the life of Joe Fresh. I think it had just launched a few years before. So Joe Mimran was there, his office was just, you know a row of desks away from mine. I'd see him every day. But actually, I did love that job, to be honest, it wasn't very creative. It was very much like a, you know, more of a planning role. And so I found myself just feeling I needed a creative outlet and at that point, blogs were just kind of getting started and somebody suggested it to me. And funny enough, I used to write a lot as a child, I loved writing. Like if you think of the five things you spent time on as a kid, for me writing was one of them, but like, I didn't write, you know, past high school into university. I didn't write at all, except for essays for school. And so just sitting at a computer and starting to write again and find my voice. It was so again, empowering because it was just kind of like it would funnel through me. I would be on the subway on the way home from work and a blog post would just come into my head, I'd go home and I'd write it. And the blog was called 'In Life and In Fashion'. So I wrote about fashion because I worked in fashion, but I also wrote about life. So it was a chance to kind of share some of the reflections I had without really, you know, I didn't like sharing a lot of details about my life, but it was a way for me to share some of the things that I was learning. So I feel like through, and then beyond that, I started a business and then another one, but I think you know, taking on things that were just for me. It was a way for me to kind of see movement in my life.

Leith: [00:27:31] Was it though, I mean, you then sort of say then you started all these other businesses, but it started with those blogs. Wasn't that how then you met your business partner or something? There's a story there, isn't there?

Kena: [00:27:43] Yes. I mean, I think that's why it's so great. Like hindsight, we do need to do it because you connect these dots that like, it's not like it was a straight path it's like, that wouldn't have happened if that hadn't happened. Like, it really does. It's a domino effect and there's no way on earth you could have planned that in advance. Like if you start a blog, you're not thinking, well, and then this might happen. That might happen. That might happen. You know, you just don't know, but yes. So, you know, I was writing this blog fairly regularly and had like a small following, I would say and then one day I get an email out of the blue from a woman who's like, I love your blog. I read it all the time. Could we meet up for a coffee? And she always says she was stalking me, which I'm like, I had a blog, you weren't stalking me, but that's okay. And we met for a coffee; we just kind of instantly hit it off. Like, you know, one of those times where you meet someone and you're just like, yep we're friends. Like, that's it. And yeah, that friendship led to a business partnership and we launched a business that we, you know, worked on together for six years and I ended up leaving and she continued and I still like support with things here and there we're still friends. I just got an email from her this morning. But yeah, it's like, it's true. That wouldn't have happened if I hadn't started the blog.

Leith: [00:29:03] Right. And then the business did that lead to the next business, like all these stepping stones in retrospect?

Kena: [00:29:10] Yes. I mean, I don't think that the next business led to the next business right away, but it's more the story around the next business. 'All You Are', which is the one that I do know is I had, you know, can continuing on after my husband passed away a little while later, I think one of the big things is that after he passed away, you know, it had been eight years of my thirties that I was basically looking after him. And I did feel the loss of that, right? Like I definitely, I was grieving and I was grieving through the whole period, you know, of like the loss of like what my life might've been, what his life would've been, you know, what our life together would've been. And so when he passed away, it wasn't the beginning of grieving because I'd already been grieving, right? But it was like moving on to this new point where I had to look at myself as 38 years old, I'm now a widow. And you know, asking myself what comes next for me now. And again, one of those moments where I feel like I have to decide like, am I going to be the widow, or am I going to be like a vibrant 38-year-old woman who has still many years of life ahead of her to live, you know? And so soon after I met someone and we ended up getting married and having a baby. Yes my beautiful daughter Nova, who's now five. But it's when she was just a newborn that I was sitting on the couch and like in a robe because, you know, newborn we know what that's like. And then I thought to myself, oh, like I love robes and I can never find the right one. And then it's just like, again, one of those things, that's like, you know, you call it inspired action, where we get ideas all the time, half the time we get ideas and like, we just let them go, right? They go back out into the ether and maybe they land with someone else and they do something with it, you know? But for some reason that day said, there's something here I'm going to. And, you know, I just opened my laptop and started researching robes started jotting down like what would make the ideal robe? Like, I remember, I think I might even still have the piece of paper where I wrote it down. And that like was just sort of like a, take another step, take another step. And next thing you know, I had to decide whether I was going to order 500 robes or not, and I decided to do it and that's the businesses.A